Burglaries - and no help from cops!

I can't find my post submitted on Wednesday, 21 June again, so here is:

Three weeks ago, my legal home was broken into in broad daylight via the balcony; my mistake was not to lock the doors on the balcony. The burglar made off with 2 computers and valuable documents.

I knew at once who the burglar was because my home had been visited by the same person a number of times before; this time I reported it to the police, and they established telephone contact with the burglar who immediately owned up, defending herself by saying she was entitled to what she had taken since she felt I hadn't given her enough compensation after the divorce of her and me was granted.

So you see, the felon is my former wife, and what she is claiming she cannot prove because she never got a court ruling - probably because of her itinerant lifestyle with no fixed abode.

Now this is my question: aren't the police supposed to confiscate the loot from the hands of a suspect even if that suspect protests her legal/moral right to the loot though admits to having burglared someone's home?


The police seem to be unable to go after her, or more accurately: unwilling even though they seem to sympathise with me.


It isn't as though I am withholding any compensation from her; in fact I paid her out in full and forced her to sign receipts to prove it.


I would have thought that a private home property must be protected by the police, and when a crime has taken place, the police ought to collect evidence and proofs to establish facts rather than be swayed by the claims of one or the other party to the conflict. It's also my view that if my ex has any claim against me she must go through the courts of her country to validate them.


Fact is that the woman in question has no key to my apartment, had no appointment with me and had served me no notice as to her intended visit to collect her "dues". She did it stealthily (and there is more to it to demonstrate that she timed her burglary to coincide with my absence rather than wait until I was in).

Now she is claiming I still owe her a substantial amount of money, which simply isn't true; I am shocked that the police remain passive; I am also rattled by the threat of this crime happening again. What if she and I find ourselves face to face in my home and push comes to shove?


You may think a man could handle a woman; you are mistaken! This woman, though not strong, is a lethal danger since she cannot control her explosive temper, and one of the reasons why my divorce was granted had to do with her violent character (I think anyone can understand that living with a woman who batters her husband even as he naps on the living-room couch is not a commonsensical proposition).


Incidentally, there was recently a second burglary - in another flat I live in (provided by my employer). This burglary involved a lot more obvious violence: the criminal tried to break into the window of my guestroom by breaking 2 bars but appaarently still not manageing wriggling through the hole). I doubt it was my ex but it's a distant possibility; more annoyingly, I am beginning to lose confidence that there is any safety at all in homes and houses. And the police are as unmoved as any stone.

This cannot go on indefinitely... what's there to do?

May I make it clear. So did the police go to where she lives and search? The police were unwilling to follow that case even she admitted that she had taken stuffs out of your apartment? So what did they do?

Thanks for your post! Your question gets this answer: the cops have done NOTHING at all. The woman burglar is as free as I am myself; the police refuse to catch her saying she has counterclaims.

My Chinese friends keep telling me her point is not legally tenable; she has to ask me to give her what she claims to be hers; entering my home is an act of violence and illegal. The police are unable to get their arses off the chairs, perhaps because they are scared of dealing with a Chinese culprit who wronged a foreign resident.

This lunchtime I got a phone call from an unknown Chinese person; I am sure it was in connection with the burglary, but it wasn't the police; I didn't want to speak before I knew who was speaking on their side and they didn't identify themselves. Finally they hung up (a man and a woman). CHecking out where I was? Next burglary planned?

I am sure you are feeling unsafe and worried. Have you considered asking the embassy of your home country for help? saying that you feel you are not receiving fair treatments from local police. "the police refuse to catch her saying she has counterclaims"~ I'm not quite sure what that means. But you as the owner of an apartment which has been broken in you certainly have the right to ask the police to process a case... regardless of the outcome.

if you read my threads then you might understand why I think you can just go on and make a case even the police don't want to~ as my mother could.

I understand your frustration. However, your comment of Hong Kong legal system is not fair. If such thing happens in UK or USA, the same thing will happen.


Technically, in the first break-in, it may be burglary. What do you expect the police to do?


In all litigation process, it is not just what is the truth. It is also a case how to prove it. Furthermore, tax payers' money is at stake. The state will not act unless they are confident of winning and they think it is an important case. It is a case of resource management. Put you in their shoes and you will realize it. It is not a case of prejudice against foreigner. Please don't make such statement unless you have solid evidence to back you. You are defaming the Hong Kong police based on nothing but your own guessing.


The legal system in Hong Kong allows you to hire a lawyer and start a proceeding (including a criminal proceeding) against the burglar. It cost you some legal fee but you may get what you want, ie, put the burglar out. Sometimes, you just have to pay to get something done. If you don't want to pay, maybe you should accept what it is.


As for the secnd burglary, what do you expect the police to do? Send police to guide your house 24 hours? Arrest your ex without any evidence?

That is why I stay in a high rise apartment. It makes it harder for someone to break into.

Gals and guys,


it's a comfort to know others read of my experience, and some give me good advice. In one respect you are mistaken - I am NOT based in HONG KONG but in Guangdong although I prefer to be a member of the HK forum.


This means my legal status is somewhat more blurred than if I was living in HK.


Let me first address some questions raised by someone:


What should the police do?


It is my conviction that the police have a duty to apprehend the culprit, secure the loot and leave it to other authorities to decide how to proceed from there; at the moment I feel as though the police were neglecting their duty, or even worse: protecting her!


COnsider: they know her name and her ID particulars; they know my legal claims, my status and the ownership situation at my apartment. The apartment is situated inside a gated community.


The "counterclaims" the burglar makes are bogus and purely cosmetic or self-protective; in this case the police ought to investigate as the two versions (of me and the burglar) s are dimaetrically apposite.


The police seem to be leaning towards leaving it up for me to involve a lawyer and the court - which is not what I want, and which is not reasonable. Must the victim of a burglary prove his innocence, or must an identified suspect providce an alibi or evidence to support his or her claim to have taken goods lawfully from someone else's private quarters?


And yes, it's a mind-numbing, nightmarish thought that I am not safe at my own home even though watchmen are sitting right beneath my home! A thief might come with arms to protect himself - or to attack. The thief might strike when I am asleep - and the thief might commit other crimes.


Of course, I thought of the consulate but I have so far refrained from inconveniencing them; they might refer me back to local officials, or they might add their weight to the issue and create a diplomatic situation that no one wants. That could backfire.


I am sending a petition to the Guangdong P.S.B. hoping they will apply their decision-making power to a local police station, but my hopes aren't exactly very good.


The reason is: if you are a foreigner you simply are disadvantaged.

Your bad experience has really turned to bias. Hong Kong legal system does not prejudice foreigners. However, it is my experience as a lawyer working in Singapore and China that a person who cannot insist what he or she wants in the legal system will come up with all sort of excuses. I understand.


Yes. No system is perfect but any system that has been around for over a hundred year is not as cracky as you think. I beleive you have read the other thread in this forum. It is the opposite side of the story as yours. What do you think? The prosecutor should charge the poor daugther?


From an outsider, I don't think the "burglar"'s claim are totally bogus. I don't support her claim as well. It is up to the court to decide, and the bottom line is you should consult a lawyer on how to enforce your rights. Hong Kong police are not your employees. They have other work to do. Since your case can be easily solve by you getting a lawyer, why insist on the police do the difficult job of investigating who is right and who is wrong. The "burglar" is not a stranger. If he is a total stranger, the case is clear cut.


Coming from a common law country, I think I can answer the few legal questions you have post here.


Must the victim of a burglary prove his innocence, or must an identified suspect providce an alibi or evidence to support his or her claim to have taken goods lawfully from someone else's private quarters?


All you need is for you to prove that the items are taken away from your premises. It is up to her to prove that the items are hers.


However, once again, there is a procedure to enforce legal rights. It is not a case whether you are happy or not happy with the procedure. In UK and USA, it is roughly the same procedure.

There are more burglaries in China than in Hong Kong. Am I complaining? No, because it is part of life.


If you are looking fo a safe place, I will suggest Japan.

sorry, douglaskoh,

you have miserably failed in understanding my submission. I stated in no uncertain terms that I am NOT criticising Hong Kong's cops; my case is one for the mainland police.

Had this burglary occurred in HK I have little doubt the police would have investigated; they would have asked the culprit to account for the accusation; I stated too that she actually owned up, so there is no need to accumulate proof and evidence: evidence would be found in her dwelling place - my property!


She had the gall to complain to me that my desktop computer wasn't in working condition; I am not only supposed to provide computers to a burglar free of charge - the computer also must be in tiptop condition! What more entertainment do you need, Mr Koh?


I recap:

There is a burglar; her identity is known; she has sort of "confessed"; the police are convinced she came to my home with sinister motives and by stealth.

She stole things to which she has no legal claim; she also is a dubious character known to the police.


NOw you are telling me I should trust a "good lawyer" and take this to the court? Ridiculous! You don't know China! By the time I get there she will have disposed of all evidence. The police' job is to secure evidence so that a court can decide what kind of crime has been committed. The police have done nothing in that respect; they filed a report. They telephoned her and got her self-explanation, which wasn't a defence but an offensive - according to her I must prepare for more damage.


I am a legal resident, and as a foreign national, a sort of guest; I want the protection that goes with my status.


It is beyond doubt that if I broke into a Chinese person's apartment the police would not merely give me a phone call and elicit my explanation for that act; they would interrogate me! They would require me to prove my innocence, or admit to my felony; in the latter case, they would keep me incarcerated until a court had decided on what to do with me: prison and/or deportation!


Why is a Chinese national allowed to get away without even compensating me for the harm she has done? Let alone for retribution! I am not vengeful - but this person does deserve a stiff punishment as a warning! Getting away like this is encouragement to continue in her antisocial behaviour!

And an opinion based on experience with China's courts:


I divorced this monster woman legally; as a non-Chinese I had no cheap option such as going to the Registrar and annul our union; I must go to the court and be represented there by a lawyer.

China's courts are overworked and highly inefficient; for anyone to get their case accepted they must be resourceful, perseverant and patient.


I had to convince a dozen lawyers of the merits of my case; most refused to accept it. One was willing to do so, saying she could guarantee me to get my divorce, and she mentioned a flat lawyer's fee. For me that lawyer simply was too expensive though I had the impression she was above average.


And don't get me wrong: these lawyers are not very experienced lawyers! Divorces are something of a novelty here, especially divorces involving foreign nationals. Chinese don't need lawyers to seek their mutual freedom - if both parties agree their freedom can be settled with the stroke of a pen in the Registrar's office!


But I am not a Chinese. The lawyer I hired did his best but, frankly speaking, I could have wished he was more principled and more reliable! He drove a zigzag course during his presentation, wavering from making maximum demands to making maximum concessions at my expense, without consulting with me during the hearing.


My divorce application was granted in my second attempt; the ex opposed it from the beginning, so the court granted her a "reconciliation period". That was a waste of time; we didn't meet or discuss our troubles; life went on as before - luckily I was on my own without her giving me trouble.


The reasons why the divorce came through were as follows:

- The couple were not living together (that's a prime reason for divorce). Indeed, my ex was living wherever she pleased, and I never knew her address except when I was her hotelier!

- A second reason was her own admission in a letter that she was willing to divorce - which she denied in court. In fact, she threatened me with a divorce shortly after our marriage, then abandoned that idea of hers; in this letter, however, she was unambiguous - a divorce and my freedom would cost me my property!

My apartment was not awarded to her because it is demonstrably my property owned since before we married! There is no legal recourse for that!


- She also was on record (police file) for being a violent person; laugh if you like, but this woman is more dangerous than a prize boxer! I am strong and can lift her with one hand - she reaches to my shoulders and weighs in at around 50 kgs. Yet, she has such temper tantrums that I am not safe at all in her presence; while I can fight her back I must be careful so as not to hurt her - or else the onus would be on me for wife-battery!

But she gave me enough hell to warrant a visit to a clinic; the doctor there refused to sign a report out of fear he would have to testify in court; I finally had the police record the facts. That police record was accepted by the court; it's not what a western court would do, of course (because cops are not doctors, and the interview did not establish beyond doubt who was the violent person!).


Anyway, my trust in China's judiciary is not on solid foundation! Finding a lawyer would be tough; paying them even tougher! And proving my points (when the thief may have disposed of the goods) could prove my loss! Finally, why involve an overburdened judiciary when this is just plain police routine work?

I don't know your divorce case but I can guess because my staffs have handled so many such cases. Whatever you said about divorce by agreement did not apply to you because in the first place there is no agreement. So, whether you are local or foreigner, you have to go to court.


In China, one needs to satisfy one of the reasons as required by the law if the other party objects to the divorce. This is not a law special only to China but in many other countries, one has no freedom to divorce at his or her own will without a reason (as stated in the law). Once you find a reason, you have to prove it. Here comes the problem. How to prove it. Most foreigners (and locals too) will say I am the proof as if they are the mighty gods whom the court has to blow and obey. Unfortunately, it does not work this way. Not in Singapore court too.


Chinese legal system is a bit different from common law system where witnesses (including the parties) can be called to testify. In China, like all civil law countries, documents are the best source of evidence. The parties themselves cannot testify. A third party can testify but it is still not as good as written evidence. That leave you with no evidence to back the reason you picked.


Our strategy is go for lawsuit after lawsuit. After the first lawsuit, the judgement can be used as an evidence. Usually, a divorce will be granted on the second attempt if not, the third attempt. It happens to local divorces. For one who wants victory at first attempt, he or she better have enough evidence. No evidence = No case.


Again, again, I have to stress the point again and again. Evidence, evidence and evidence. I like what you say in other thread, your words against hers or whatever. When it comes to you, your words seems like command from the God that all police officers must blow and obey? You have read the other two cases. I can tell you have a clear mind. But when it comes to your own case, you are not applying the same principles. Everything you said may be the truth but it is still your words only. Just like the mother of the other thread.


She has sort of "confessed"? That means that she did not confess. As you said, she said that she took what belongs to her. Isn't this a case of your words against hers? How is it so special?


I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. She can dispose of what she has stollen. So what? She already told the police she took them and they belongs to hers. As you said, police report is admissible as evidence. Hence, what else do you need? Instead, I think you should be more concern on what the police has recorded on what she said.


Seriously, you are just being prejudice against the police because you don't get what you want from them. Again, I have to say. Police are not your employee. One problem with Chinese police is that are too polite to tell you that they cannot accept a case on your words against her words especially both of you are ex-relatives. They will start saying things to please you like they know she is the culprit, etc, etc. In their mind, this is a case of 清官难断家务事.

Oh, I forgot to mention one thing. She is guilty for trespassing. That one I think I am able to agree with and I believe so were the police. However, trespassors are not usually charged in China and in many other countries.


Let push the case a bit further by making a little assumption. If the court rule that the staffs are yours, will the ex be guilty of burglary? The answer is not yet. There is still another element in a criminal case that has to be proven. She knew the staffs are not hers. This is very difficult to prove.


Seneca, I will give you a final tip. Tapping of conversation or telephone call may be admissible in the Chinese court. So, start tapping.

Good advice and tip from douglaskoh.


I also believe this woman thinks you owe her a living and will not give up and keep doing her best to "punish" you. She is not going to stop at this. I have met one crazy woman like this before - they will stop at nothing, "Right" or "wrong" is not part of their thinking. She sounds like she probably spends all her waking hours working out ways to get at you - how can you compete? The rest of us have responsibilities like work and lives.


Secure your premises, if you can move, move, and make sure it is hard for her to find you.


If she wants to trash your other apartment, you can't stop her - but you can try to secure it better, change the locks, etc


Collect evidence - record dates and times of conversations, tap calls, etc, etc.


Finally live your life, don't waste your time or energy on her, just protect yourself as best as you can.


It is not the police you should be worried about, it is her. Also they are limited to what they can do.

Another thing, you know she will be pouring through all the files on your computers, trying to get dirt on you. Prepare yourself for anything you might have left on there.


I kno someone who ended up storing important docs in a new cash deposit box and having bonfires of paperwork to avoid his crazy ex finding anything at all she could twist against him.

Thanks for the commiserations and the more useful tips... The deed is now one month old and any "evidence" has lost its intrinsic value as it no doubt can no longer be used in court...thanks to the Chinese cops who muddled along so professionally!

In this Franz Kafka-land the authorities cannot be counted on though the authorities want to be able to count on their subjects... the police' job is to protect not the citizenry but the rulers!


You get a lot of contradictory advice: lawyers suggest you hire detectives and the police will tell you detectives are not covered by the law, hence they are operating in a gray zone that quickly can become illegal for foreigners (you might be a spy, no?)...

And the thieves that do get caught red-handed get a public drubbing that's a horrible spectacle for any sentient being; I have watched more than a dozen times as police or upright citizens took the law in their own hands. But try and follow the law to the letter, and you get hindered by the same authorities that act so spontaneously in streets...


Anyway, I have reported my case to the provincial HQs of the police; I didn't get away feeling they showed a lot of empathy but at least I secured from them a promise to look into the matter - they actually handed to me a "receipt" that states that my case is under review.


I don't expect much any more but it would be a great relief to know that woman had got a serious knockback from her own country's officials!

Because if she doesn't it will be like an invitation to puruse her personal idea of "justice" on her own and in total disregard to the law!

That would inevitably lead to anarchy. She could feel emboldened in her interest in harming me more seriously - why not burn down my home while I am asleep in it?

Some good legal advice in some of your responses. Enough to scare me from every getting married here!

My only comment is in relation to the first question about the Police not assisting with the theft. I wouldn't either! This is not a simple theft and is mixed up with a family dispute. I can understand the local Police not getting involved and would expect out western Police back home would also not get involved.

i wouldnt trust the police as saw in my own eyes some police that helped to make a burglary to ex-wifes house(not mine but friend of mine) they where sitting inside with broken locks and with the culprit who had looked all he needed to take must have taken. and Police didnt do nothing even we stayed all night in the police station the end result was a "talk" with the ex-husband only what a joke...

Dear vanderer74,

I quite agree! Since I posted my first enquiry there has been no progress in the matter and there have been a number of other incidents...

I did report the case to the higher echelon of Guangdong P.S.B. and have been given an official receipt, which is tantamount to having a solemn promise the authorities will investigate...

Why did it take that much?

But in two months they have not moved the case one inch! I haven't heard from them in spite of their obligation to act.


On the other hand, my second home, owned by my employer, has been broken into two times over the past 2 months... I have just been there and was informed my next-floor neighbour actually noticed suspicious goings-on in my flat... which was ransacked, the matrtress moved on the bed, the drawers opened, the clothes on a pile on the floor, a music player also lying on the floor, a passbook and HK dollars (!) left behind but some RMB missing.


I don't know whether the burglar did this to scare me since he could have left with another computer and other valuable hardware in his tow. He smoked (stubs of ciggies on the floor). He also must have used a ladder at least 3 meters high to climb up to the balcony of my apartment!


The police are "investigating"....

yeah i heard that my friends ex-husbands family knew some cop from there so they helped him...i guess its the guangxi thing still very strong here if you know someone you can do whatever you want. And did i forget to mention i posted here like 360+ days ago when my wife got robbed the police was not interested at all in that...im sure there are lots of robberies here but they had in mind that my wife was a prostitute or something and i was her client...that really pissed me off trust me it did.

I am disturbed to read (gain!( from someone that Chinese equate liaisons between a foreigner and a Chinese as akin to prostitution; I know they do jump to such conclusions although I had for years ignored this uglty truth!


A Chinese woman today told me she was berated one day when she was asking the bus conductor to sell her and her western friend travelling with her the tickets AT THE SAME PRICE; the conductor swore at her, saying she as a Chinese should make a foreigner pay double or more - unless she was a TRAITOR!


My girlfriend and I also had 2 nasty encounters with Chinese supernationalists; they made us extremely uncomfortable by staring at us in a most unbecoming manner until we gestured for them to look elsewhere. Thereupon they made obscene comments that I deem unprintable.

nothing new the staring thing...in my local supermarket its so crazy even i have lived there like 2 years already, they stare me so bad that i get the feeling they think im gonna steal something...someone following me in any row where i go, so kinda i try to avoid using that place...