I have just been on the BA website, looking for information about flying with children, and under the FAQ section found information about what they call 'Split Families'. Basically, they have a policy that means that parents can sit in a different class from their children (if they are over 5 years of age). Parents hand the children over to cabin crew at the gate, having filled out the appropriate paperwork.
Am I the only person who thinks that this is appalling? I had heard of people booking their helpers in economy while they flew up front - I thought that that was bad! Subcontracting your childcare to cabin crew for 13 hours seems unbelievable! BA claim to have introduced the policy in response to customer demand. Are they just hiding behind that to discourage us from bringing children into Club or First, or is there genuine demand for this service? Don't get me wrong, I remember how relaxing flights were in the days before we had children, but I was aware that that would change once we decided to have a family.
OK, I may just be a bit put out that they claim that they can babysit a 5 year old for 12 or 13 hours but cannot guarantee that my one and four year olds can sit next to me in the same cabin! I am also at a loss to figure out how they can say that they have the staffing levels for this, but do not have enough people to bring my buggy to the door of the plane when we land!
Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
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I was on a long haul flight back to HK recently in Business CX with my children ages 6 and 12 and the English couple next to us had thier three children back in Economy. They looked to be about ages 6 - 12. I am not sure that they had handed them over to the cabin crew, however the children kept comming into business to see their parents especially the little one. I felt so sorry for her. I think from the age of 16 it would be ok for your children to sit in economy while you sit up front - they are then adults - however personally would not have either the heart or the cheek to do so before hand. Last year my husband and I were upgraded to 1st but not the children. There was no way I was going to leave my children by themselves in business so we decilined the offer. I don't think it is a ploy by the airline to discourage children in either first or business but it maybe a way of them getting the parents as maybe some parents would only fly business if they did not have to pay for the children - what ever the reason Dora I have to agree with you it is appalling in my view and had I followed the same example of the English couple on my plane recently - I would have saved an enormous amount of money over the years - however, what's good for me is good for my children and vise versa so we all go together.
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suze
20 yrs ago
Got to admit though slightly tempting??
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I think kids can fly by themselves in the back way before 16! I flew recently next to a couple of 11-12 y.o. whose parents were at the front, and they were perfect, they didn't bother me one bit. My sister has also done it very often, with her kids, and she never had a problem either, the kids are much happier staying in the back with their friends - which happens everytime they fly home for summer hols. Given the opportunity, I'd take it!
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Fantastic system. Shame my boy's not even 2 yet...
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Yes I think you are the only one that thinks its appalling. Its for 8-12 hours - max usually - So if I was given the opportuntity to sit separately I would do it. It's not like your going on holidays on your own and leaving your kids somewhere else... I just know that flying with my kids is a nightmare - they hate it and I hate it, and I really struggle to keep my cool -so if someone is able to help me with that - then yes, please, thank you very much I will take the help and we will all have a great holiday and as I spend the next 50,000 hours with them I will be grateful for the small break I had on the way there....
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As much as it is tempting I would have been worried what my children were up to down the back as left to their own devices are very creative - when travelling with the four of them I had to stay awake just to make sure they were up to no good due to boredom (in the days before personal TV's in every seat). Couldn't imagine a cabin attendant having the time or capacity to even begin to understand what their capabilities for mischief were - let alone control or ward off possible boredome or temptation.
Now they are older (teens) they actually do get to travel solo and are very well behaved (or so they say!!!) So I would be quite happy to seperate us - although they would certainly kick up a stink If I was up the front and they were down the back!
If I could trust my children to behave apropriately unsupervised - yes I would have been more than happy to sit up the front and have them supervised down the back.
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Guess I'm in the minority then! Just cannot imagine sending my daughter down the back in a year's time. Maybe I'm just irritated that they can claim to look after a 5 year old for 13 hours (never mind think of her in an emergency), but cannot guarantee that I can have my stroller back at the door on landing when I'm travelling alone with them! Always thought that holidays were about family time and that our job as parents was to always put our children first....how naive am I?
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cd
20 yrs ago
Dora the explorer, I'm with you on this one. Crew barely have time to bring you drinks let alone supervise kids. What if they need the toilet, my 7 year old still won't use an aircraft toilet without me standing by the door as he's afraid of getting stuck (he couldn't open the door once when he was younger and started panicking). There's plenty of time for you to travel business class when the kids are older.
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MayC
20 yrs ago
I never thought about this issue until you wrote, Dora. I remember when I was young, my 5 year old cousin had to take a plane to see my grandma in another state. The journey was only for 2 hours but she was able to go on her own. Her mum (my aunty) was working long hours and grandma wanted to see my cousin so off she went on the plane. She did it for a few years. There was an attendant looking after a few children who were on their own. There was this one time when she had to use the toilet and the attendant didn't know she was gone. Anyway, she heard the announcement and ran to the plane. My grandma was panicking because she couldn't see my cousin getting on the plane with the rest (from the window) but at the very last minute, thankfully, she saw my cousin running to board the plane.
This was worse than what's been discussed here because my aunty wasn't even on the plane with her.
While I can't imagine flying without my little girl or sitting in a different class to her, I think people do do it for a variety of reasons.
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I'm sorry but I have several issues with this topic.
Firstly, as a business traveller, I do not think it is appropriate to have children in either business or first class. Don't even get me started on crying babies. Some of you will call me heartless but frankly I pay to travel business so that I can rest druing the flight and be ready for my meetings.
As a new mother, I will not accept that it is right for parents to sit up front while their kids (of whatever age) sit in economy. My parents never did it with us and I will not do it with my kids.
So for business trips, I will fly business class. For family holidays, economy.
And before I get a barrage of insults, I have seen this from several angles: as a business traveller, a mother and an unaccompanied minor from the age of 9.
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I second Vulvic's post.
And would add that I do not like travelling in any class where parents completely ignore their children's bad behaviour and let them run riot. Although there are many parents who go out of their way to ensure their little ones are well behaved, happy and entertained, there are those who are content to inflict their bad parenting on others - and in the confinement of an aeroplane this is unacceptable.
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I'm with Dora on this one. Seems a bizarre concept to me. "Mum and Dad are sitting in Business/First Class kids, you can sit in Economy, we will all be much happier that way". Yeah right. Why don't that just check the kids in with their luggage if they are such annoyances in their lives.
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@@
20 yrs ago
I would never leave my kids in another class, although the thought is appealing!
Where we can, we fly business with the kids, we want to arrive as rested as possible and WE pay (not a company).
I do work pretty hard to ensure the kids behave well on the flight and really they are fabulous travellers. We might get a little crying from time to time but it's no worse than the snoring, smelly bloke across the way!
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I pay to travel business class to get some rest for my meetings too. I also pay business class for my son so that we can all get some rest. Flat beds = toddler sleeping the majority of the flight.
Good luck Vulvic (once you become a mother) getting your toddler off to sleep in an economy seat.
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I totally sympathise with the people who say that if you pay for business class, you want rest. I cannot help noticing people grimace when they see us board with our 2. I have been there, so can identify.
We have been lucky though, we have 2 great flyers. It's more good luck than good management (although I do book flights around their bedtimes and do as much of the 'bedtime' routine as possible at the airport or on the plane). In our experience, a flat bed means a sleeping child. I don't think I have ever disembarked without someone commenting how relieved they were that they were so well behaved (read asleep). In fact, the only troublesome flights I have had were short haul in economy during the day.
Airlines can and have been known to downgrade passengers if their children misbehave. If I thought it was unfair on other passengers to fly my children in business, I would do as Vulvic said and fly in the back with them. As cathyjane pointed out from her experience, parents who fly apart from their children do not spare other passengers the interruptions of children if they keep coming up to see their parents.
We have often been booked in separate seats because I book return flights with the children and my husband flies one way with us and then back earlier alone. He jokes about not trying to move them, because of course the flight is easier without them, but he would never actually sit away from them, his time with them is limited enough as it is. And of course, I must admit a tinge of jealousy when he is flying home or on business alone - undisturbed time reading books, watching movies and sipping champagne. But would I swap places; no way!
I think the children flying alone thing is different. If a child is old and responsible enough, they'd get excited about flying to a grandparent etc. You are not telling them that they are not worth the time and expense of sitting with you.
Maybe I'll feel differently as they get older, but right now I cannot imagine the negative message that we'd send them by saying that we are worth the extra pampering and expense, but they are not.
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A colleague of mine does this. I was shocked when he first told me, then all the pieces started to fit together....Both he and his wife work around the clock, their children know their unqualified helper better than they know their parents, they book the children into the Kids' Club as soon as they get to their hotel and book babysitters to eat with them every night, while they take the fine dining option. Then he had the nerve to moan about the teachers' complaints about his children's behaviour and he constantly gripes about the bills for their child psychologist! It does not take a rocket scientist to work out the cause and effect here.
I am one of those husbands who flies 'one-way' with his children. I have a much easier ride than my wife onboard; even when I'm with them, they turn to her to do everything, no matter how hard I try. I know that she works harder with them than I do at work. I realise that my flights alone are infinitely easier than her return flights alone, but I would swap places in a second!
Nobody lies on their deathbed saying 'I wish I'd spent less time with my children'.
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Someone suggested checking them in with the bags - best idea I've heard yet.
I still don't see the problem - I would bet that virtually no child could care less where they were sitting - constant TV and snacks is good enough. I honestly think that by bringing up kiddies to expect to travel in luxury is probably not the best thing for them anyway, but then I can't afford to travel BC.
And, to those who complain about kids in BC - silly argument. We don't get to choose who we sit with on planes. I would prefer not to sit next to old lecherous men (perhaps those husbands flying home seperately...) who feel that I would like to spend 14 hours being harrassed, but without taking a private plane I don't really have the option to choose my travelling companions. I cannot abide people who sit there hissing at me when I am trying to calm a crying baby - it is not as if I am making him cry for the fun of it. Flying brings out the absolute worst in a lot of people.
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I think children would prefer their parents than TV and snacks, but why not give them both?
I feel terribly for people who fly with crying children. Let's face it, their parents suffer much more feeling helpless and watching their child suffer than other passengers!
We flew home a few weeks ago on the same flight as friends. They were in Premium Economy, we were in Business. We could hear the poor children cry endlessly. When my youngest was awake, we swapped 2 of our seats for theirs, and hey presto - sleeping baby and toddler! It was only for the last hour and a half before descent though, was not feeling charitable enough to do it for half of the flight.
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hkkm
20 yrs ago
I think it all depends on the age of the kids as to whether it's reasonable to expect them to be able to sit apart from their parents. My brother and I were flying between Australia and the US unaccompanied from when I was 9 and he was 7 (and those were the days when the flights landed in Fiji, and you went through immigration and customs in Honolulu before going on to San Francisco). The airline staff helped us with the formalities when we were younger, but we were certainly capable of sitting by ourselves on the plane without making a fuss. A lot of kids aren't this independent though.
As for kids in business class (in particular young kids), well face it, business class isn't just for business travellers any more. It's for anyone who can afford the extra to travel in comfort. I'm sorry for anyone stuck next to a crying child (including the parents!) but business class doesn't guarantee a child-free flight. Good headphones with noise cancellation (even of you aren't listening to anything) are great for blocking out unwanted noise...
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out of the box in regards to your remark -
"Are most people missing the point here? Most children can survive and behave on a flight, but why would you do that to them? Are the people who find this aceptable the same ones who let a helper or nanny do their child rearing for them?"
I think you are right - certainly the flight I flew on recently with my children, as mentioned in a previous post there was a couple whose three children sat at the back who kept comming up to the front, the father just seemed annoyed with their presence and more or less ignored them and carried on watching his film and the mother only got up a couple of times so hopefully she was going down the back to check on her children. I was just amased by their whole attitude towards their children and was actually shocked by it. Yes horses for courses I agree but hopefully it is the minority of parents and not the majority that behave like this. I also have to agree with Dora about "the negative message that we'd send them by saying that we are worth the extra pampering and expense, but they are not".
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I discussed this with my son who is 9. His reply: "If we can afford 3 BC tickets, why should I sit in Econ while you guys get luxury treatment. If we can only afford 2 tickets, you should save some money by sitting with me in Econ." I agree with him.
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kar
20 yrs ago
I would not do this. Either suck it up and have the whole family in Business Class or deal with it and have the whole family together in Economy. We always fly Business long haul (other than one Christmas when we couldn't get the booking) and it is so much better than Economy Class. My kids have space to do things and can actually sleep.
I would never shove my kids in a cheaper class without us and I certainly would not bring my helper along to be the parent.
As for children flying unaccompanied, that's a different story. There are times (especially if the parents are divorced) that this happens. I would personally feel very uncomfortable with is especially if my children were still quite young.
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r.lee
20 yrs ago
Sounds like BA is making it possible to "check the kids with the luggage" that was my first thought at the beginning of this thread, before it was mentioned. "Checking" a 5 y/o on his own sounds appalling to me. A 10 and 12 y/o together, who have some flying experience, is another storey.
While I agree with Dora, mumOf2, and hkkm in regards to parental responsibility; I am pleased to hear about BA new program. Hopefully by making FA responsible for the care and comfort of someone else's child (as I would personally never choose the option for myself), FA in general will be more tolerant or sympathetic to the struggles parents face while traveling with little ones.
My husband and I make the long-haul trip from HK to the US with our 2 year old every 3 months or so. We book 1 BC and 2 EC then switch places every 2 hours or so taking turns entertaining/caring for our son in EC or resting in BC. I find it impolite to bring an active 2 year old into BC. People pay more for BC/FC for a reason; I don't think it is to sit next to my screaming son.
I have however, had to fly several times unassisted with my son. During those trying times, I was grateful for CX attendant’s willingness to watch/entertain my boy; if even just for a few minutes so I could use the toilet w/o bringing him along.
I will never forget a NWA flight when, my then 15 m/o son was particularly active and I was w/o help. Everything seemed to go wrong; the flight was delayed, the plane was entirely full, my son was cutting teeth, his juice spilled in the bag; making a soggy mess of the crackers, diapers and extra clothes I had packed, my son had a case of diarrhea, I was seated next to Mr. cool who hates children, and to top it all off I started my period that very morning. Despite these huge challenges I managed to keep it together for most of the flight. Until of course, toward the end of the flight, when I had to plead with the FA to let me have some crackers only to have them tossed in my lap an hour later with a snide remark that "the crackers were for BC passengers and I should have brought own". And since the FA attitude usually sets the tone in the cabin; I got sour looks and snippy comments from the majority of co-passengers. A normally strong and confident young mother was reduced to sobbing in the toilet with her crying baby on her lap. That NWA FA would have benefited from a few flights with the "check your kids" program!
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Just another thought which would probably sway me mre toward not letting them be down the back unaccompanied - In the case of an emergency - who would look after the kids? would they get the parents down to the back or the children up to the front? I doubt very much that the FA would be able to look after the children in this type of scenario.
r.lee - I feel for your bad flight - have had a few of those - but of course I was travelling solo with 3-4 children all under 5 - sure makes a difference when the FA have time or the inclination to help out - or just talk to the children - found them to be particularly good on CX.
Whenever i sat next to people who hated kids - just reminded them that there is the option of flying in another class where it is quieter - the baggage class!
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i won't have the luxury of being in biz class anytime soon. but if i ever got offered but not enough to move the entire family, i would:
1) (if only 1 seat offered) take turns with hubs to enjoy biz class...the rested one will then take over to look after the bub iin economy.
2) if there are 2 biz class seats, bub and 1 parent there, and swop with parent in economy class mid-way.
that way, nobody gets deprived. mind you, bub is only 20 weeks so no plans to leave him alone!
speaking of flights, we just booked BA for our UK trip in end August......not sure if i am looking forward to our first flight with bub, scary!!
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Blitzing - my parents travelled with my borther and I in economy from the ages of 1 yr onwards. They managed. Dad says he used to keep us both awake for as long as possible before catching the night flights so that we slept most of the way.
Agree with an earlier post about parents ignoring their children's bad behaviour. I remember one flight when one particularly obnoxious child kept kicking the back of my seat. He must have been about 4yrs old. Mum and Dad were sat either side of him and did nothing to stop him. However, they soon reprimanded him once I gave them a piece of my mind.
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you know, i am re-reading this thread and while i personally would like my kid with me at all times while i travel, i think...why should we be appalled by BA's policy or parents who allow flight attendants to look after their bubs? because if you want to stretch this discussion, then someone can also say, isn't it appalling that you leave your bub in an overseas hotel with the hotel's babysitter while you go out for a nice meal with hubby? because whatever it is, you are leaving your bub in the care of a stranger.
so i think we shouldn't judge BA or parents, it's really up to them. but that said, i feel that if they do choose this route, it is only considerate for other passengers that their kids are well-behaved enough not to disrupt the flight and make it a nightmare.
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I disagree with your reasoning Wheelymate - I agree it is appalling that you leave your bub in an overseas hotel with the hotel's babysitter - I have never done that for what I see as obvious reasons and neither would I ever consider it - the same goes for leaving my children down the back with cabin crew with out me or my husband. My personal view.
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cathyjane,
i would never leave my kid with a hotel babysitter or alone in economy if i ever get so lucky to be placed in biz class. i personally disagree with it BUT i think this is something many parents do and if this is what they are comfortable with, i don't really think it's our place to say it's appalling.
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bw
20 yrs ago
I understand what you are saying wheelymate. It's exactly what I've been thinking..that there is so much judgement on this forum regarding others' parenting styles I find it disappointing. In the absence of our regular support system be it close family or friends (part of being expats in HK) we look to forums such as these for support. And I find that everyone is disgusted/apalled by something someone else is doing just because it is not what they are doing. I differ in opinion on many issues be it feeding/bedtimes/childcare but I do what is in the best interests of my family alone and I feel in the same way we should not judge others on what they do - obviously they think it is the best choice for their family. I'm with you on this one wheelymate.
As for my opinion on this particular subject - I couldn't do it.
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So, bw/Wheelymate - would you think that this question should have been posted in Speaker's Corner instead or not at all?
Taking your approach to its logical conclusion, any opinion is potentially offensive. The only way that we can litmus test or own opinions is to compare them to others. People cannot help being judgemental about parenting styles, because let's face it, we will all too soon depend on how the next generation turns out.
I also have to question that everyone does 'what is in the best interests of my family alone', parenting is becomming an increasingly selfish experience (not universally, but it is an increasing trend). I believe that threads like this help us to step back and reassess why we brought our children into the world and what are responsibilities to them really are.
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On the safety question - there is no way that the cabin crew could care for your children the way that you do.
I personally think these threads are very useful. I constantly worry that I am over protective, so find other's opinions very interesting. Sure, some are more strongly worded than others!
I have sympathy with someone who mentioned above (think it was the original poster), that it is appalling that the airline can take responsibility for other passengers' children, but cannot promise that I can have my buggy back at the gate. I guess it is a touchy subject for me right now!
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this entire forum has been excellent and a godsend for me whenever i want to gather opinions on parenting, strongly worded or not. i think everyone is trying to do the best for their kids, just that everyone's definition of best differs. and i think that is great.
i think we might have gone off abit on the topic here, maybe it's my fault for raising the hotel comparison. but my current take is that i wouldn't leave my kid alone with the flight attendant - if there was an emergency, would the flight attendant look after my kid? i can't guarantee that.
:)
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bw
20 yrs ago
south side - difference of opinion is fine, discussion is fine. Attacking others is not - which is what I've experienced on numerous ocassions on these forums (i'm not referring to this thread). Downright personal abuse - so easy to do since you are anonymous. So now I've taken my opinions to other websites. And you didn't take my approach to it's logical conclusion that's your own conclusion - I don't find other opinions offensive I find them different, but I think we can do it in a civilized manner (again reference to personal attacks). I accept that people think differently and am a very good listener too. Am I selfish regarding my parenting experience? Of course I am - I'm the only one to do it - no one is going to do it for me!
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bw, you do have a point. I certainly find some of the posters on the DH form downright rude. There was one thread a while back asking about if and how people take helpers on holiday and the replies were scary, basically accusing anyone who considered it to be a failure as a parent.
In general though, this one tends to be more constructive, but not always as supportive as geobaby etc. It does have a much higher hit rate though, and I have found it much more helpful when browsing for specific information.
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Yes cara, language and lack of tone can lead to misunderstandings, but some posts are just meant to be rude;
'Gawd here they are again,The Pol Pot league with no lives.Heavens ,don't tell me you think the helper is...gasp!!having sex???Remember sex , do you? '
on the same thread;
'Yes of course that little horizontal jogging incident you had 9 months prior to you dropping your ankle biter unless you believe in immaculate conception?'
or;
'In fact I find it sad that people can't manage a week or 2 with their kids without a helper' (the lady whom she was addressing simply asked how she could manage her 2 young children on a long trip to care for a sick relative, without her husband)
Fortunately, people on 'Moms & Dads' at least manage to be civil and polite while disagreeing!
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